More liturgy changes

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Better tighten your seatbelts… sounds like we’re in for quite the ride! I hope that the diversity of the Church’s celebrations is respected. But my hunch is that some will try to impose one vision of liturgy. Who knows. It’s probably best to pray for a spirit of respect and open communication.
New appointments mark bold papal move for Liturgical reform

.- Pope Benedict XVI made a low profile but significant move in the direction of liturgical reform by completely renewing the roster of his liturgical advisors yesterday.

A hardly noticed brief note from the Vatican’s Press office announced the appointment of new consultants for the office of Liturgical Celebrations of the Supreme Pontiff. It did not mention, however, the importance of the new appointees.

The new consultants include Monsignor Nicola Bux, professor at the Theological Faculty of Puglia (Southern Italy,) and author of several books on liturgy, especially on the Eucharist. Bux recently finish a new book “Pope Benedict’s Reform,” printed by the Italian publishing house Piemme, scheduled to hit the shelves in December.

The list of news consultants includes Fr. Mauro Gagliardi, an expert in Dogmatic theology and professor at the Legionaries of Christ’s  Pontifical Athenaeum  “Regina Apostolorum”; Opus Dei Spanish priest  Juan José Silvestre Valor, professor at the Pontifical University  of  Santa Croce in Rome; Fr.  Uwe Michael Lang, C.O., an official of the Congregation  for the Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments and author of the book “Turning Towards the Lord” -about the importance of facing “ad orientem” during Mass; and Fr. Paul C.F. Gunter,  a Benedictine professor at the Pontifical Athenaeum  Sant Anselmo in Rome and  member of the editorial board of the forthcoming “Usus Antiquior,” a quarterly journal dedicated to the Liturgy under the auspices of the Society of St. Catherine of Siena. The Society, which has an association with the English Province of the Order of Preachers (Dominicans), promotes the intellectual and liturgical renewal of the Church.

Also relevant to the appointments is the fact that all former consultants, appointed when Archbishop Piero Marini led the office of Liturgical Celebrations, have been dismissed by not renewing their appointments.

50 comments

  1. I am positive that these changes lead the faithful to appreciate and love Christ more in the Eucharist and bring the meaning of the Eucharist received outside the Sunday Mass. Thanks for the updated info.

  2. I for one am welcoming the changes. Having met Fr. Lang before his oridnation and read his informative book “Turning Towards the Lord”, I can only say that things will get better. A reorientation of the priorities of the mass and focus of our faith.

  3. Correction. There is a diversity of Rites but it would be incorrect to say there’s a legitimate diversity of “celebrations.” This is an unfortunate heterodoxy by priests whose understanding of he Mass was was never properly formed in their seminary years. Thank God Piero Marini and his clique are gone: they spent their final years openly undermining Benedict XVI in print and interviews (typical non-serviam Liberal intolerance of legitimate authority). Hopefully this shining new group will finally be able to teach the faithful that Liturgy as lounge act is a terrible affront to Christ’s sacrifice.

  4. It will be interesting to see how this plays out at the regular parish level. Personally I don’t have a problem with Ad Orientem. I have no baggage from preVatican II as I wasn’t around then but a lot of boomers seem very threatened by these changes although many cannot really articulate why.
    I don’t see things going completely back to the past such as all Masses in Latin but it would be nice to get a little more reverence and chant happening.
    (not that I think the Masses at St B’s are irreverent or improper in any way although I did have a problem with the mad dash for the parking lot before the closing hymn was finished; really rude) Somehow I don’t think the Pope is going to make any progress on that one!

  5. Actually, at our parish.. the mad dash is better than at many others. At least you don’t have to fight the crowds to finish the recessional!

    With the regards to the other comment… where’s Karl Dean when I need him? How am I to react to someone who characterizes the mass as a “lounge act” or that priests were not properly formed? Is that really a conversation or just an attack/insult?

  6. “…diversity of the Church’s celebrations…”

    But aren’t we the “Universal” Church, where I should be able to go to different parishes and know what’s going to happen each time without having to sit in the back and watch what everyone else does, and/or avoid a certain “vision of liturgy” than can occur?

    The reality is, and by no means do I mean to be disrespectful, that we haven’t been a universal Church since Vatican II when it comes to liturgy. I know that the Extraordinary Form will be the same in Canada as in United States, as in France (even though I may not understand the homily in French – and the allowed slight differences that can occur for the laity). I’m not one that supports the abolition of the Novus Ordo, but it needs fixing so that it remains the same in all parishes. If the Novus Ordo could be done like the Oratorians do it, I believe we wouldn’t have this problem of having to “tighten your [our] seatbelts” when changes happen in the Curia.

  7. The liturgy has been celebrated well in all it’s diversity for over 2000 years in the various Rites of the Church. Even within the Roman Rite there have been variations. There is such a things as the Roman-Franciscan Rite. Before Vatican II we had our won particular variations. It’s a myth to think that liturgy, 50 years ago was all the same, and even more of myth to think that it was done well. Palestrina and extraordinary chanting was more of an exception than most people want to think. Just ask the people who were there on Sundays in a regular parish.

    Folks it’s also time to realize that the Extraordinary form is now the Novus Ordo! The liturgy of Paul VI is the traditional or regular form of the Roman Rite.

  8. Sorry…I should have clarified that I wasn’t talking about the different rites of the Church that are a wonderful patrimony to the Universal Church throughout the centuries no matter how “different” they are. I was speaking specifically of the Latin Rite at it is celebrated in the Normative Mass promulgated by Pope Paul the VI in the 60s. I would never expect going to a Byzantine Rite church and get the same sort of liturgy that we have in the Latin Rite.

    But to dissect your comment that the Extraordinary Form is now the Novus Ordo…actually it’s not. The Extraordinary Form came before the normative Mass of Paul VI, therefore it is the traditional Mass (in the Latin Rite). The EF had just recently been given more “breathing room”, if we can say it that way, to be used more often in parishes, which may make it seem like a new Mass; but it has always been there even though it hasn’t been the normative Mass for the last 40 years.

    Do the Red, say the Black is all we need to do. If the curia has to remind our priests, and laity, of that requirement then I think it’s a good thing…especially for the laity and their understanding of the Mass and their role in it.

  9. I am wondering where the youth/young (never mind those once young) fits into this discussion about the “changes” happening in Liturgy. It seems the Church is only for “adults.” Have we not notice that many of the youth are drifting from the Church? The youth is the future Church. I have not heared any discussions that cater to the youth. Any idea? Thanks.

  10. Michael,

    Considering you are Friar Rick’s brother, you should show a little more prudence in your comments.

    Look at this quote which appears today on Father Zuhlsdorf’s Blog, What Does the Prayer Really Say?…”is at the service of Sacred Tradition.” The same thinker even dared to describe the new mass as “no re-animation but devastation… fabricated liturgy… banal-on-the-spot product.” The man who wrote those words is now Pope Benedict XVI. The Cardinals elected Ratzinger knowing that these were his convictions. It cannot have been done in a fit of absence of mind.”

    How about this one:

    Hardly anything of what happened was prescribed by the Second Vatican Council, not the turning around of the altars, not the almost universal use of the vernacular, not the scaling down of the sense of transcendence and sacrifice, not the discouraging of the faithful from kneeling when receiving holy communion, not the receiving of communion in the hand rather than on the tongue.

    Educate yourself.

    Read it all here and then read it again!

    http://www.isn.ethz.ch/isn/layout/set/print/content/view/full/73?ots591=4888CAA0-B3DB-1461-98B9-E20E7B9C13D4&lng=en&id=92140

  11. Dharanlei,

    So what are you looking for?

    Most think you want guitars and clappy-happy banal little ditties about us and we and you and me.

    Perhaps what youth want is the truth, the transcendence, the mystery of God as revealed in the sacred liturgy.

    So, then here is your mission.

    This Saturday at 11:30 be at The Toronto Oratory Church of the Holy Family on King Street one block east of Jameson for the Solemn High Mass in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite and observe how many there will be under 30.

    And Michael or Friar Rick, if you mock this as you have both done in the past, then you mock Pope Benedict and his Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum.

    Nobody is forcing Latin down your throat, but stop forcing your women at the tabernacle and Extraordinary Ministers and Haugen-Hass on an Eagle’s Wing down mine!

    You liberals talk about diversity except when it is something you disagree with.

  12. In discussion to dharanlei’s comments I totally agree that the youth is drifting from the Church. I don’t think any one of us are blind to that. I believe it’s because of the state of the liturgy/catechism in many parishes. The kids don’t see the Truth of the Catholic Church; they just see some happy hand holding sentimentality (I know that’s not at all parishes). I personally don’t like “talking down” to kids about the Faith. And I don’t mean talking to the age level concerned. We always need to communicate at the level the children can understand.

    But kids are smart and they see through that sentimentality sort of stuff in a second and they also think they can find it somewhere better. If we don’t look different than anything else out there, how can we tell our kids that this is the Truth and nothing else will fulfill you and your search for meaning in life. The young adults who are faithful to the Church and its teachings are there despite the sentimentality.

    You need to have an adult knowledge to deal with all of the mysteries of the Church, but if we don’t talk about the mysteries to children little by little to where they can understand the basics, they’re not going to want to know the actual mysteries when they’re adults. You can only talk about Jesus being your friend to a child for so long, then they will wonder why this guy is so different from Santa Clause. They aren’t told that He is our Lord and Saviour and that we can’t be happy without Him. This is what is happening in a lot of parish out there (BTW this is not a generalization…I used to work for a Liturgy/Programs director at a chancery office. I saw what was being taught and it wasn’t pretty.)

    Also I find, from personal experience, that the young adults who leave the Church usually come from families that are “cultural” rather than “rooted in the faith” Catholics. To have the youth care about the future of the Church you need to have adults who care about the future of the Church as well. When I was a kid I saw all the devotionals that I loved going to with my family being slowly removed so I naturally assumed that there was nothing important anymore. I was fortunate and blessed enough to meet people who showed me the Faith again and how important it really is. We just have to get that message to youth. I’m not talking about ‘catering’ to them. I actually don’t like that term when it comes to talking about the Church. I love parish functions that involve kids and young adults, but when we ‘cater’ to a special group when it comes to the liturgy or the teachings of the Church we’re saying “you’re not as smart as the rest of us to understand what we know.”

  13. Well, I’ve been to many a childrens liturgies. From What I have seen we shouldn’t consult them. To be quite honest dharanlei children are always the future. Yet I don’t remember any great contributions that the Youth made to the councils of Nicea, Trent or Constanople. So despite their lack of input the church managed to survive to this day. They managed the to make it through the Reformation, the Enlightenment.

    Having been a youth once myself, I can tell you that I wasn’t Catechised enough to offer even a Hail Mary. Now I see these youth know even less. Since the Church survived greater trials in the past I say we should go back and use what worked then.

    P.S. -Now Michael before you come back with some half wit reply – please put a sock in it. The Church grew out of Rome. Latin was the language people used in the early church. Not Aramaic, simple history explains that away. Please stop hiding behind this facade to attack the traditions of the church.

  14. When I attend Mass , all I want is to understand what the priest says. Could you please tell me how many people speak Latin on Planet Earth. When I recite a prayer in the languages I can speak I understand every single word which comes out of my mouth. I’m not mocking anything or anybody.

  15. Michael,

    I grew up going to mass, never really paid attention. Just sat there. I heard everything. But I didn’t understand anything. Then one Sunday, I happened to attend a Latin mass. I didn’t understand what was being said. I followed along in the Missal reading the English. Guess what…. I understood what was going on! I understood what was happening on the Altar. Even though I didn’t understand a word I got it for the first time.

    Even though we may understand the words do we really understand what they mean. Its so easy to take it for granted because we know what is being said we don’t appreciate the nuances or sublties.

    I kept going back to that Latin mass. By now Michael, I do know enough Latin that I can follow a mass. Perhaps not enough to challenge Ceaser in the senate but enough for the mass. For me thats good enough. – By the way it wasn’t that hard. I challenge you to try, a good start would be to attend this mass that David has mentioned. I’ve heard good things about the Oratory and would attend if I could.

  16. Michael,
    I’m just trying to say that we have to evolve too.

    I know people who are liberals/progressives they are very close minded. They only see things through their groovey, rose, colored glasses. They need to evolve beyond the folk bands and embrace house/techno music for the youth. Folk is so 1973, don’t you think.
    …. I know people who are liberals and those people are extremists.

    So whose right Michael?

  17. Mobius,

    I attended Mass in Latin when I was a child and all I did was to recite prayers in Latin just like a parrot (even though I had a lovely bilingual Missal (Latin-English) sent to me by my uncle – and which I still have with me today).

    Re Mass mentioned by David … I would have to catch a very early plane …. totally impossible. I’d rather go to my lovely Parish and pray in a language I fully understand and master.

    I don’t know who is right and who is wrong. All I know is that I do my utmost to keep away from extremism. Being an extremist is very very very bad indeed.

    You see in Paris there is a church where the traditionalists celebrate Mass. That church has been occupied illegally by the traditionalists (belongs to the city of PAris) for about 30 years.
    I went there quite a few times …. I was shocked, for example when I had a look at the books they sold at the back of the church …. extreme right books …

    So at least here in Paris/France, Mass in Latin is most of the time coupled with extremism linked to things of the past which have had very sad repercussions on society and which made a lot of people suffer. A great majority of traditionalists here reject the concentration camps, for example. They say they were invented by the British and the Americans. They always have nasty jokes about the Jews.

    Thank you but no thank you …. I don’t want to have anything to do with such extremist Catholics.

    Maybe things are different in Canada or in other countries.

  18. I am happy now that we start analyzing what’s wrong with us Adults that many of the youth quite “indifferent” about Church’s life.

    It’s not that simple to accompany the faith journey of the youth. Their faith develops goes with the stages of their human developments. But, faith development at early stage is very crucial which leads basic foundation of faith in adult life.

    Thanks to David who points out to me that it is my mission(would it not be good to say that it is our mission?) to help faith development of the youth by teaching to them the real content/mystery of our faith. First, we should learn to entice them/ or hook them up. YOu are right pointing out the blahhh of the guitar and singing.This is very useful pedagogy for the young people, but we should not remain there.

    Thanks to all ! Now, no “boxing and punching.” Good night!!!!

  19. Michael,

    I don’t mind a heated debate. Sometimes it’s a good thing to get those blasts going back and forth in the spirit of a good arguement. However, going forward, do not lump people like myself who love Traditional and the Extraordinary Form with the extremists whom we, as well as liberals alike, abhor. I don’t brush liberals/progressives with the same brush because of individual experiences and bad teaching, so therefore, please do not brush us with the “extreme” Catholics that you speak of.

    You’re caviet at the end does not excuse your generalization. Base your reason for not wanting to attend the Traditional Mass on the truth of what you know not how other people behave. If you found a parish like the Oratorians, I’m sure you would have a different experience and a new opinion.

    Thanks.

  20. Elizabeth,

    I’m certainly not in for a heated debate.

    I gave you the French example. I never spoke about Canada, did I? I ended my message by saying “maybe things are different in Canada”.

    My generalisation (for Europe) still holds water, whatever you say because most traditionalists are ultra conservative and if you take the OD people you can understand immediately what I mean. Correct me if I’m wrong, but in Spain and elsewhere the OD people will never run a school with boys and girls in the same class. God knows how they brainwash them. Most traditionalist schools in France do not have the Minsitry of Education’s blessing … so you can imagine what they teach the children, especially in the history classes. More examples if you need them.

    Now, you also get people who attend traditional Mass because they love to listen to prayers and hymns in Latin. These people are absolutely not part of those I have described. The Oratorians probably come into this section.

    The category I described mix tradition with ultra conservative and extremist politics (e.g. voting for the NAtional Front in France, against foreigners and who always come up with racist remarks and jokes when they are among themselves). These are the very dangerous people one should keep away from.

  21. There you go again Michael. You trash the Opus Dei without knowing them. Have you ever been to an OD school? No! You simply disagree with them. Have a hunch on what goes on in schools. As Elizabeth said, base your opinions on the truth. Show us a book on OD cirriculium that says Holocaust=hoax jews=bad. Until you do, don’t pass you prejudices off as a fact. I know people who do that with blacks and we don’t tolerate that and we shouldn’t tolerate your ignorance.

    By the way, Michael I’ve been to a really liberal parish once upon a time. Horror of Horrors, they sold really left wing books and had other lefty material. I guess all liberals are bad. I heard one mention god was a women. I think all liberals are bad. Guess what? they took the kids on a retreat. I bet they met up with druids and worshiped the earth. They even vote for the NDP.- I’ll give you more examples if you like Michael? – Do you get?

    Michael, what we are doing here is trying to open your eyes. You have your experiences but look beyond your own world view. You have a real problems accepting that others experiences are just as valid as yours. You paint large swathes of people with the same brush. It really frustrates my efforts in talking to you. Have a some courtesy, be open to listening.

  22. KARL,

    Don’t make me say things i haven’t said. Don’t distort my words. Put on your specs and read my message again and you’ll see that the racist remarks and the nasty Jewish jokes is in my last paragraph and relate to the National Front. And as for history classes, I linked it up to the French traditionalist schools which are not supervised by the Ministry of Education … nothing about OD on those points.

  23. Yes, Friar Rick, you really now acts like a ‘father” before your siblings go into physical commotions as a result of intellectual healthy chaos. I am very happy that your parish members are very learned. The Church is full of hope if we always have people like from St. Bonaventure. Not only good in the teaching of the Church but also trying to give witness into it. Thanks.

  24. Michael,

    Are you kidding? Use Latin in Mass including homily? Of course there will be more people coming because many were not yet born when Latin was used in the Mass. I did not study Latin language nor an “ex-convict” no I am joking, an “ex-seminarian” to learn Latin in the seminary. I will never be absent just to be very curious. I might be able to see a “hallow” above each one’s head. But, I still have to go to other Church to be able to listen to the homily and participates in the Mass. I hope there will be good “homilist’ there, the same as what I found at St. Bonaventure.I hope many will join me otherwise…..?

  25. dharanlei,

    Latin is a very beautiful language … some call it dead … but I once witnessed a French Jesuit priest (who spoke no English) having a conversation in Latin with an American priest (who spoke no French).

  26. Michael,

    Why don’t you convince your Friar cousin, the pastor of St. Bonaventure to use Latin (once in a while) in Sunday Mass? This will be a great change! I did not see this as moving backward!

    There might be something ‘mystical” in Latin even the sound of the language that precipitates our imagination to enhance our mystical experienc of God Incarnates who dwells in us. In English Mass we don’t use our imagination anymore because everything is given but sometimes we don’t use the opportunity to digest the beautiful things we heared. I believed that “imagination’ plays very important role in our faith formation. I’ve never been into this kind of Mass purely Latin though my first reaction is WHAT???? But, I got an insight from your comment Michael. Now, I want to experience it. I am so excited! Just to launch a change once in a while. Do you think the pastor has to ask first a permission from Bishop Collin and consult the congregation?

  27. Sorry dharanlei, but even after two years of college Latin, I don’t speak it well enough to celebrate the liturgy. There is parish close to us that Archbishop Collins has set up for this purpose. Holy Cross in East York celebrates the ExtraOrdinary Form of the Roman Rite. It might be good for you to have a go. The last Latin celebration of the Ordinary Rite that I attended was a a monastery a couple of years ago. The music was astounding, but I found praying the liturgy in Latin made it rather distant and cold. But, that’s me. You may have a different experience. Try it out.

  28. dharanlei,

    Sorry but I am not in a position to convince my Friar cousin in a domain which is not mine.

    Secondly, I don’t really understand when you say “In English Mass we don’t use our imagination anymore because everything is given”. Is it Latin which makes you use your imagination?
    And in your daily life … what language do you use … I assume it’s English and does that make your daily interaction with other human beings diffcult to manage … I didn’t quite catch that.

  29. Michale,

    That’s not what I mean. For me, when I listen to something that is totally unknown, my mind tend to be creative to “hit” the meaning. Since, the context is the Mass which uses Latin, I feel that this language brings me another dimension of deep mystical experience.

    I don’t have problem to connect with others if I like to with english as our medium of communication here in Toronto. But, sometimes, since the language is so familiar to me, there’s a tendency for me sometimes not to pay so much attention to the dynamics of communication.

    I can imagine myself, attending Latin Mass becoming more curious but not to understand it because I would never understand it. Maybe it would give me another opportunity to enter into such religious experience where I can try to use a lot of imagination to gain a mystical experience. Maybe, by that time I become more meditative as I will enjoy to listen to a very foreign language.

    Anyhow, Michael thank you for your advised. I might try to explore that nearby Church where I can expirement to attend Latin Mass. Thank you for endorsing this Church.

  30. Dharanlei,

    Here are the details of where you can find the Extraordinary Form of the Mass in Toronto:

    Holy Family Parish – 1372 King St. West (Congregation of St. Philip Neri)
    Mon – Fri: 11:30am
    Sat: 8:30am

    St. Vincent de Paul Parish – 263 Roncesvalles Avenue (Congregation of St. Philip Neri)
    Sun: 9:30am

    Holy Cross Parish – 291 Cosburn Ave, East York (FSSP)
    Mon/Wed/Fri/Sat: noon
    Tues/Thurs: 7pm
    (There are some Sunday Masses but I can’t remember where and when.)

    There is going to be a Solemn High Mass on Tuesday (Oct 07) at Holy Cross for the Feast of the Most Holy Rosary. The FSSP are there temporarily until they receive their “personal parish”… from what I hear it will be somewhere along the 401 – where…Fr. Vanette doesn’t know. The Solemn High Mass will be a little overwhelming, but come just to see what it looks like. God does understand that even within our confusion about what is going on we are still praying. That’s the wonderful thing…we don’t have to say a word at Mass if we don’t want to, and our offering of the Mass is still pleasing to God. When I first started going I just sat there not knowing anything. It didn’t take me long, however, to get comfortable with following my missal and the Mass at the same time. (BTW…I’m not against a dialogue Mass, far from it. I’m just saying that the Priest is doing the actions and words for us and we are uniting our sacrifice with him to God in the process.)

    If you want to come I would be more than willing to answer any questions you may have. I’ll be be the lady with the white mantilla, curly hair, black rimmed glasses and red coat…just come up and say hello.

    Also to answer your question…”Do you think the pastor has to ask first a permission from Bishop Collin and consult the congregation?” The pastor does not need permission from the Bishop to say the EF, or say the NO in Latin (The Holy Family Parish 11:30am Mass on Sunday is a sung Latin Mass).

    Our Holy Father removed what we called “the indult” where permission was needed from a Bishop. That’s why sometimes the Mass was referred to as the “Indult Mass”. Mind you, even now some Bishops are still against having it and make it difficult. More seminaries are beginning to include training in the curriculum on how to say the EF because they know more people are requesting it. Also, it’s usually the congregation that asks for it. Priests are not suppose to decline the request if there is a stable amount of people asking for it. Again, however, it depends on the priest if he is open to saying it. And the priest doesn’t need permission from the congregation to say the EF. However, parishioners who don’t like the EF can cause lots of persecution for that priest. Lots of variables.

  31. Hi Dharanlei

    Once you try Latin and come to appreciate its depth you won’t be able to go back to the clappy happy masses you’ve come to expect. As the T-shirt says, “It’s better in Latin!”

    By the way the Latin Novus Ordo mass at Holy Family is at 11:00 not 11:30.

    Jessie

  32. Elizabeth,

    Thank you for the detailed info about the schedule/whereabouts of Latin Masses. I might be able to find one that suits my schedule. Sure, I will connect with you if ever I would go to your Church. I already had printed the page of the whereabout and scheduls of these masses of LE.

    I would try to expirement this LE Mass with the Lord of course, for slight change. Thank you also for the info about pastor’s independent decision.

    Michael thanks, for you were the one who first encouraged me to try to attend Latin Mass, though yourself don’t have a very good experience about it. You had this course in the seminary. So, you must be a priest too like your cousin? Sad you don’t have Latin Mass in your parish.

    I thought you Michael is like your cousin Friar Rick who is very good in Latin (that’s my picke up)Jessie, thanks too for your encouragement.

  33. David,

    There are books on the market. Just read them. And those books, I can assure you were not written by Barbara Cartland ….. The Opus Dei have done a lot of harm to a lot of people just like some so-called charismatic communities … we have a friend who was a nun in one of them and was beaten etc… so I’m sorry … no apologies when it comes to taking advantage of people who put all their faith in a community and members of that community look down on them and torture them both physically and morally. What’s more BBXVI when he was a cardinal knew all about these things and never did anything to help.
    It took the Church and the Pope years to emerge and say sorry about the pedophile cases … who knows how many more people will go on being tortured morally and physically before the present Pope re-emerges to say sorry. In the meantime our friend who eventually left the community in question has remained a very fragile person ….. A real shame!

  34. Well Michael you’ve posted that story before. Its a personal antedote. It seems to be the only one you have. Someone once told me that I shouldn’t judge all priests as bad simply because I could site a few examples of instances were priests failed to live up to their duties. Should I listen to his advice? He was a priest after all.
    ANyway Michael. I know good people in Opus Dei. As asked before who is right? You? Hell no, this group is an officially sanctioned group within the church. Get over your ingnorance. I for one am tired of you bashing OD. I will get on your case everytime you do that. One bad story about OD means the whole thing is evil. Hey pal, check out this list of people I could hold a grudge against, due to negative stories/prejudices,
    1. Blacks
    2. Chinese
    3. Japanese
    4. French
    5. Catholics
    6. Protestants
    7. Jews
    8. Italians, especially
    9. Mexicans
    Have I made the point yet Michael. There are books about these groups. I could read a lot of selective literature and always find the bias I want. Do you get it? Narrow minded twit. OD is not what you say it is nor think it is. It might have some dark corners. But it certainly isn’t what you think it is. If it was do you think it would have the standing it does? Oh yes of course JPII and B16 are corrupt evil men who looked the other way. Grow up!

  35. I take it that you Michael and your brother or cousin Rick have heard of Pope John Paul II?

    Are you not aware that he canonised as Saint the founder?

    Do you know better than him?

    After all, you both no better than Benedict XVI.

    But you see, it is no wonder, your hero Friar is Karl Rahner who Pope Benedict in his previous role considered to be heretic…look it up!

  36. Karl,

    What’s wrong with you? it seems that your are “hitting” the whole world now? You are “spewing” your lava all over.

    I think it’s time for the author of this blog, Friar Rick to intervene.

    Why evil in others become a serious issue here. Don’t punch me. Isn’t it that each one of us has two faces of the coin? We all have it. Karl, come on, calm down. Have your blood pressure check, and rest for a while. Friar Rick, help! what’s wrong ?

  37. dharanlei,

    You need to chill. For months Michael has been spewing his hate of Opus Dei on this site. I have family members who are part of the group. If he wants to debate OD thats one thing but he keeps it up with only one personal story to go by. I would like some objectivity on his part. I don’t get how you say I’m “hitting” the whole world.

  38. Karl,

    You are not using the Present Perfect Continuous correctly! = have been spewing ….. wrong usage, Sir. 😦

    And once again don’t make me say things I haven’t said. I gave you an OD example and my friend’s example is linked to a charismatic group. OD, Karl is not charismatic but ultra conservative and ultra right.

  39. Is what I’m saying so spot on in being correct that you have to critic my spelling to find a fault? Well bully for me!

    Perhaps I will agree with you that OD is right. They do have a growing membership. As well they are faithful to the magesterium which speaks for Christ on earth. The Catholic Church is the way of truth and light in this world. Good Michael I think we have made some headway here. Keep up the good work using your grey matter!

  40. Michael,
    You’ve read all these Opus Dei books but why haven’t you mentioned the most ambitious, most widely read “expose” on Opus Dei? Namely, John Allen’s book, “Opus Dei: An Objective Look Behind the Myths and Reality of the Most Controversial Force in the Catholic Church.” John Allen, as you’ll, recall is a liberal reporter of the ultra-progressive dissident rag “National Catholic Reporter.” Despite these credentials, Allen spent two years of his life living, working, praying and studying with members of Opus Dei in half a dozen countries. His verdict? Opus Dei is a gift from God, and a brilliant idea for sanctifying everyday work and life for the glory of God. Like Karl, I know Opus Dei and I know some members and I totally concur with Allen.

    If you have Liberals in your family, you know they generally have a craven fear and hatred of hierarchical authority which defies all rationality. I think all of here see that in the rants of Michael, many of which do not even follow basic logic or reasoning. This kind of mentality has been studied pretty thoroughly in the latter half of the twentieth century and has generated many theories, from Robert Nisbet’s authoritative book “The Twilight of Authority” to Dr. Charles Krauthammer’s charactrerization of BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome).

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